ryah ([info]four) wrote,
@ 2008-04-15 13:26:00
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The God Delusion
The idea of bluntly arguing for atheism is off-putting. Having never been brought into a religious environment, I've been a de facto atheist my entire life. Not for many years have I had the desire to debate or discuss religion in the presence of religious people; I learned early that it was a dead-end discussion. So when I started hearing about Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion book I was uninterested, perhaps even a bit annoyed. Annoyed because anyone who has the ability to think clearly is an atheist (or at least an agnostic or deist). What point is there arguing to the brain-washed and/or brain-dead? But being reminded of it almost daily on 3 quarks daily eventually persuaded me to purchase the book.

I expected trite arguments but the book was rather refreshing. For the existing atheist, The God Delusion encourages confident disrespect of religions and their believers
Whenever a controversy arises over sexual or reproductive morals,you can bet that religious leaders from several different faith groups will be prominently represented on influential committees, or on panel discussions on radio or television. I'm not suggesting that we should go out of our way to censor the views of these people. But why does our society beat a path to their door, as though they had some expertise comparable to that of, say, a moral philosopher, a family lawyer or a doctor?
I am emboldened to not ignore or distance myself from this problem. For example, by hiding my lack of belief when people say prayer before a meal. I will watch them quietly but I will not bow my head to avoid a confrontation.

The last chapter was lovely and uplifting, describing a world view without a god. Mark Twain said, "I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it." There is much to explore, create, and know while we're existing - why waste our time on delusional non-sense. The book reaffirms one to continue forward with this fresh and chilly rejection of dogma.



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Rejecting dogma?
[info]aemadrid.myopenid.com
2008-04-15 07:46 pm UTC (link)
"Annoyed because anyone who has the ability to think clearly is an atheist (or at least an agnostic or deist)."
"There is much to explore, create, and know while we're existing - why waste our time on delusional non-sense. The book reaffirms one to continue forward with this fresh and chilly rejection of dogma."

I can't get away from the feeling that you want to get away from dogma just to replace it with another: there is no god and anybody that thinks otherwise cannot think clearly and is wasting his/her time. I believe in God and I guess that makes it impossible for me to follow your logic. Could you help me please? Just an honest question. I'm not trying to fight just talk.

AEM

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Re: Rejecting dogma?
[info]four
2008-04-15 08:45 pm UTC (link)
Approaching subjects rationally and requiring evidence is not a kind of dogma at all. in fact, it's the opposite of dogma.

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Re: Rejecting dogma?
[info]gstef
2008-04-15 09:14 pm UTC (link)
As a mathematician you probably know that evidence in religion is ΑΤΟΠΟΝ (i.e. unreasonableness). Faith and evidence live in different manifolds.

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Re: Rejecting dogma?
[info]aemadrid.myopenid.com
2008-04-15 11:15 pm UTC (link)
"Dogma (the plural is either dogmata or dogmas, Greek δόγμα, plural δόγματα) is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization, thought to be authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from." [1]

I personally consider atheism an ideology but I can see how that could be debatable. Nevertheless, the notion that there is no god and that is "authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from" seems very dogmatic to me. You made the case that people that believe in god cannot think clearly and from your response I gather that the reasoning behind it is because they believe in something they cannot prove.

I propose that there is ample proof, at least for me, but in a different sense. I know that my wife loves me. I can't prove it in the same way that I can prove that there is a certain amount of oxygen in the air that I breathe. But I can feel the presence of her love in a very real way to me. And honestly, I consider myself a rational person. How much might be debatable but denying my ability to think clearly because I believe in things that you don't seems to me is very myopic. Wouldn't you agree?

AEM





[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma

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Re: Rejecting dogma?
[info]four
2008-04-16 06:07 am UTC (link)
I don't particularly want to get into a debate since better people have done so and recorded it - we don't need to go through the same motions but less articulately.

I personally consider atheism an ideology

Do you also consider it an ideology to not believe in the tooth fairy?

Wouldn't you agree?

No. You not being able to prove that your wife loves you does not bring us closer to there being a big man in the sky who created the universe. Replace 'god' with 'pink unicorns' - do you believe in them too because you know your wife loves you but cannot prove it? Anyway you have some substantial evidence to think your wife loves you: she married you, she probably spends lots of time with you, she states occasionally that she loves you.

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Re: Rejecting dogma?
[info]aemadrid.myopenid.com
2008-04-17 12:20 am UTC (link)
she married me and spends time with me but that cannot prove that she loves me. Some people live with other people because it is convenient. I know she loves me because of reasons I cannot prove but I still know she loves me. I'm not not interested in discussing the existence of God if you are not but I feel you calling me uncapable of thinking clearly and brain dead because I believe in God seems unnecessary and out of character. Maybe I'm wrong, you tell me.

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Re: Rejecting dogma?
[info]four
2008-04-17 11:51 am UTC (link)
I feel you calling me uncapable of thinking clearly and brain dead because I believe in God seems unnecessary and out of character.

Agreed, brain dead is too harsh - certainly the religious are capable in other parts of life. But I cannot respect the decision to believe in unicorns... it should be a publicly ridiculed belief. We need to work towards a thoughtful, rational society - away from dogma (religious, political, engineering (eg enterprise software), etc)

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[info]anathelen
2008-04-16 02:12 am UTC (link)
I was a lifelong Christian who has recently decided that I do not believe in the Christian God, nor any other kind of supreme being (it was lack of belief in an afterlife that did it for me - still in the process of departing from my church, where I am rather involved and beloved) and I didn't find The God Delusion to be particularly compelling either when I was a sort-of believer or more recently as an atheist. It felt mostly like a rant by an ardent atheist - an articulate rant, to be true, but not a very persuasive one. However, Mr Dawkins didn't seem to be writing a book to persuade believers or those of unexamined opinions, but one for people who were atheists to pat themselves on the back and feel better for already being rational and enlightened, and this approach didn't endear him to me. Most importantly, Mr Dawkins doesn't seem to know what he's arguing against - as in, he doesn't seem to have much first-hand experience at being a believer and the process of losing faith. It was the aid of the quiet, slightly loss-tinged men and women who had moved from belief (the ministry, in one case) to disbelief that guided my doubts.

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[info]nibot
2008-04-16 06:33 am UTC (link)
Amen.

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